Ta_Seti, a premier online African-centered discussion group!
An Haratin family from the Draa Valley in Morocco. The Haratin
were found to have the closest blood typology to the Dynastic Egyptians
From: SMTP%"SVBLL@jazz.ucc.uno.edu" 27-MAY-1996 20:24:42.84 To: EMEAGWALI CC: Subj: evading evidence Return-Path:
Received: from cortez.nis.newscorp.com ([22.214.171.124]) by CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU with SMTP; Mon, 27 May 1996 20:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by cortez.nis.newscorp.com (8.7.5/Delphi SMTP GW 1.0) with SMTP id UAA18342; Mon, 27 May 1996 20:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cortez.iguide.com (bulk_mailer v1.3); Mon, 27 May 1996 20:24:27 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:56:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Staffas V. Broussard" Subject: evading evidence To: firstname.lastname@example.org Message-id: <01I5792IOM5I94I3NY@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"email@example.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk concerning thin lips and noses and originates from comments of S. O. Y. Keita in a letter to Eric Martel. Given the conversational aspects of this medium, sometimes I find it difficult to discern a poster's position within the overall discusssion. Katherine Griffis, I was wondering what is the position that you're taking and how would you respond to the questions below? (If Bernard Ortiz is listening, I would also be interested in your response.) Do narrow faces and narrow noses equal Mediterranean types or mixing? Does all intermediateness imply admixture? Are there groups whose genetic origins are West African, but are light to dark brown in complexion and possess narrow noses and faces? What about East African? Are there groups of Black Africans with narrow noses and faces? (e.g. see Hiernaux, 1975) Are there late dynastic groups in the delta that cluster with tropical Africans (Howells, 1973)? Are there groups that cluster with Africans in one method of analysis and with Europeans in another? Are these intermediates? How should they be classified? As Mediterraneans? Do very large samples of Egyptian remains exhibit tropical microadaptation? In general, the issue is do the early southern Egyptian exhibit tropical microadaptation or do they exhibit cold climate adaptations. (Kieta, 1990) Isn't it true that Dynastic Egyptian mummies show ABO frequencies similar to the Haratin, a negroid Berber people? (Paoli, 1972, Journal of Human Evolution) What does a comparison of early Nile Valley remains and eastern Mediterranean imply about their biological relationship? (Angel, 1972, Journal of Human Evolution) Do you agree that the ancient Saharans were Negroid in the neolithic, where Negroid here means from the extreme Negroid to Elongated phenotypes? Do you agree that the Mediterranean type becomes prominent in the Sahara in the 2000-1500 B.C. period? (Chamla, 1966) Do you agree that there is a significant overlap of southern Egyptians with Black Africans? Do you agree that in the mesolithic in Upper Egypt the characteristics of remains are more like West Africans, than later predynastic Egyptians? (Strouhal, 1984, Journal of Human Evolution) Ask yourself would ancient Egyptians have to be identical to Kenyans in order to be characterized as Negroid?. Consider that while the variations reflected in the Alpine, Dinaric, Nordic and Mediterranean have been characterized as _Caucasian_, only extreme physiogamies are called _Negro_. Isn't the Elongated typed physiogamy truly tropical African? Also, truth is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Consider Petrie. Petrie percieved the Galla in the Egyptian portraits. He did not see Mediterraneans. I believe he claimed that the Galla had invaded Egypt in the first intermediate period. Didn't Volney bemoan the fact that the race he saw enslaved in his time were the very people who built the pyramids. And Budge characterized Egyptains and their culture as African. Has there been a racial study of Egyptian portraits and statues? The Sphinx does have a Negroid look, doesn't he? His broad Negroid face. His profile exhibiting subnasal prognathism. As a personal aside, I believe that I can safely say that there isn't a person of African descent in the New World who would not identify Akhenaten as a person of African descent. Thanks, staffas ----------------- G. Paoli, in "ABO Typing of Ancient Egyptians" IN _Population biology of ancient Egyptians_, edited by D.R. Brothwell and B.A. Chiarelli, London, New York, 1973, showed that the Dynastic Egyptians were most closely matched with the Haratin of the northern Sahara. Paoli mentions the theory of Cabot-Briggs (Cabot-Briggs, L. (1958), _The Living Races of the Sahara Desert, Massachussets) that this resemblance might indicate the origin of the Haratin. Here are the figures given for the two groups from Paoli (p. 464): Modern Northern Haratin and Dynastic Egyptian ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No. O A B AB p q r ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Egyptians 160 34 64 34 28 34.35 21.45 44.20 (Paoli) Haratin 202 40 80 57 25 30.99 23.14 48.87 (Mourant) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Haratin are considered a mixture of the "aboriginal black population" of North Africa and freed slaves mostly from the South. Of particular interest in the chart above is the very high frequency of the q gene. In most European population, the gene frequency is below 10% (See Montagu, A. _Introduction to Physical Anthropology_ 1960, p. 334). --------------- Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 0:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: GLORIA EMEAGWALI To: email@example.com CC: EMEAGWALI@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU Message-Id: <960602005916.20249567@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Subject: Saharan Africans Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Paul Manansala, I take this opportunity to acknowledge your comments on Saharan WestAfricans.I have come to similar conclusions, from different routes perhaps. The Northern regions of Cote d"Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, Niger, Chad, and Cameroon as well as Senegal, Guinea, Mali, Burkina Faso and so on fall within the Saharan/Sahelian zone, which is the same latitude with the Nile civilizations of Antiquity. No impassable barrier stood or stands between East and West.Eurocentric Africanists generally claim that Ezana"s defeat of Meroe (Nubia) led to massive migration from that region into West Africa. The same folks, from the other side of their mouth declare how impossible it was for a similar population movement, a few kilometers north of this region.When British imperialists invaded the region("pacified" to eurocentrists) entire communities of Northern Nigeria migrated East to the region partly coextensive with Nubia of antiquity, Sudan. This they did by feet and on camels.They didn"t have to board American Airlines to do that. Similarly , from time to time we come across documents and general information related to pilgrims from Senegal, Nigeria and so on who successfully did the Hajj following well trodden routes. Mansa Musa of Mali and his huge entourage did not travel by American Airlines either.Eurovcentrists create obstacles where they do not exist and conversely look around for the most improbable solution to a simple problem. Was it Thomas who eloquently alluded to this a few weeks ago? Ortiz, what else can we do for you besides bringing a live Egyptian from the Pharaonic era? How else can we communicate to you our findings with respect to Egyptian cultural links and in what other language. I have indicated the similarities and continuities with respect to braided wigs, Africoid combs, headrests, diet and ok large penises! I identified some of the observations of Herodotus and noted similar tendencies. Paul cited the observations of Shinnie, who had a pretty long list which was characteristically trivialised. So what relevance could this be for the present? San was asked. What does this have to do with our materialistic present, blurted the same guy. "But each African is unique!" shouted the obstinate linguist! Five minutes later the guy who asked the first question moved towards his computer, not knowing of course that the binary mathematics of the computer and boolean logic did indeed have ancient roots and that the very calendar he used was a modification of the ancient Egyptian calendar. (To be continued some day) Gloria Emeagwali [continued] Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 7:19:36 -0400 (EDT) From: GLORIA EMEAGWALI To: email@example.com CC: EMEAGWALI@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU Message-Id: <960602071936.20249967@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU> Subject: Saharan/Sahelian West Africans Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk I forgot to mention that most of the Saharan/Sahelian West Africans with the exception of some Tuareg are jet black.The tuareg themselves have a jet black component. I also want to make a modification to my previous post with respect to the ancient roots of the computer. I believe that it is not so much Boolean logic and binary mathematics that have ancient roots but rather the principle of progressive doubling.Please note the correction. Gloria Emeagwali ----------------- From: email@example.com (Charles Curtis) Subject: Race Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk > >Maybe because it assaulted us dozens of times, no one has responded to my query >of a few days ago. Why should we accept that there are three races (Negroid, >Caucasoid, Mongoloid), as suggested by the Egyptian gentleman to S F Thomas? > >I ask again because >staffas Broussard seems to accept this classification (due to Blumenbach in the >18th century) in his string of questions concerting more detailed physical >resemblances among peoples. > The issue of race and its very existence appears very problematic for this discussion, as I am sure most have already ascertained. Topical observation shows that most of the definitive markers that have been assigned to determination of race are artificial at least and ambiguous at most. Although it is difficult to obtain concensus from even anthropologists, if I may, I would like to humbly submit my thoughts concerning this matter. In attempting to classify individuals according to race it appears futile to search for quintessential specimens. Any given trait can be shown to exist to a lesser or greater degree in all of the so-called racial groups. I think it would be more appropriate to treat what we refer to as races as groups or populations of individuals that exhibit with greater incidence certain traits of heredity, moreso than other groups. Some individuals will exhibit all the traits, while others only some, with varying degrees, since each trait is transmitted independent of others. There is no Negro, Caucasian, or Mongoloid gene that I know of. If there is, I would greatly appreciate any information pertaining to such. The presence or absence of a particular trait does not particularly include or exclude an individual. The trait frequency in which it occurs within a given population would determine if it is characteristic of a group. Populations that procreate chiefly among themselves due to culture and geographic boundaries tend to exhibit over time distinctive characteristics which compromise a common genetic heritage. This is what I consider a race to be. A relatively isolated and definitive breeding population. There are surely factors of genetic drift, changing environmental stresses, and of course migration that weigh in over time. It appears that the concept of race has been bastardized, primarily for political expediency in many instances, over the years. It is a concept that most people have an intuitive notion but find difficult to articulate. Language is so inadequate. I'm not so sure anthropologists are in complete agreement. To espouse the "three race position" leaves one rear quite exposed. The somewhat ancilliary issue of skin color is a trait that is most commonly used in attempting to place individuals into racial categories. However, this adaptable trait is somewhat unreliable since most groups from equatorial regions have increased levels of melanin in response to increased levels of UV radiation. Likewise, lighter skinned individuals tend to be from dreary climes further away from the equator who evolved lighter skin to most likely facilitate production of 1,25 dihydroxycholecalciferol (a form of vitamin D) necessary for the proper metabolism of calcium. So you don't necessarily have to be a Negro because you have dark skin nor a Caucasian, as these terms have been applied, simply due to a lighter complection. I simply attempt to apply Darwinian principles that basically state that individuals better suited to their environment have a reproductive advantage. Conservative traits that are not greatly impacted by environmental stresses such as hair type, tooth architecture, RBC antigens, etc. are probably better race markers. But who am I to say. I'll leave that to the experts. Anthropology is not my area of expertise. However, I do believe this is a reasonable approach to the issue of race. A dimension of this so-called debate that distrurbs me are the implicit and sometimes explicit assertions by some that race is a non-issue, that it doesn't matter. I have to wonder if these individuals practice what they preach. Sure race matters. It matters for all of us. On the related topic of racism I believe is not monolithic but multi-faceted and very natural if viewed within the context of obtaining some real or perceived benefit that allows a particular group or individual to thrive or have advantage over others. A one Mr. Howard Schwartz articulated well the phenomena of racism as it pertains to the individual and I quote: "From a psychoanalytic point of view, racism is a form of projective identification. Roughly that means that certain ways of seeing ourselves that are unacceptable to us are projected outward onto others where we can try to control them. It is a way of preserving our fantasy of our own perfection. In the case of racism, unacceptable ideas about the self are projected onto members of another race, which is then hated and attacked, as if we could destroy those hated parts of ourselves by destroying the members of the other race. An individual who structures his or her life on the basis of this projective identification is a racist. It's important to note, though, that the basic psychological process has nothing to do with race. Anything outside the self will do: people who believe differently than we do, another nation, indeed, even our own nation, seen as a malevolent force outside ourselves. Our parents can suffice, or our students, or our spouses. For that matter, racists themselves can serve as a focus for our projective identification, which may magnify their power and their malevolence and cause us to see them where they are not. The point here is that projective identification is basically an intra-psychic process which comes to look like a relationship to others because we cannot accept it as an intra-psychic process. It is, moreover, something which, if we are honest with ourselves about ourselves, we can all find ourselves engaging in. Fact is, the capacity to be honest with oneself about oneself is the best and maybe the only means of relinquishing projective identification. It can also help us greatly in appreciating the substratum of our common, flawed humanity." Racism appears to be a collection of behaviors and not a single entity. Now back to Bernal's charge that racism was a contributing factor in the Ancient Model of Greek history being discarded for the Aryan Model. Has the jury reached a verdict? Charles Curtis
Ta_Seti, a premier online African-centered discussion group!
Report any problems to Paul Kekai Manansala at email@example.com
Sponsored by AsiaPacificUniverse.com
Ta_Seti, a premier online African-centered discussion group!