Posted by KC Elbows on October 18, 2002 at 09:40:51:
In Reply to: Re: Perhaps you didn't understand posted by Yawara on October 17, 2002 at 22:59:51:
'Since that is Chung Moo's form and they are teaching it for money, and I am not authorized to, I'll concede that you are right as far as you know.'
It's sad that conceding one minor point is so difficult for you. After all, I had no major difficulties stating the pros of the moo in my first post, but you avoid saying there could be a con. Doesn't that seem a bit unrealistic?
'But I will also say either 1st degree knowlege went down when you were learning that form because what you describe sounds more like what a first or second section knew about that form in earlier times. Really, What you're saying is true, I agree with you but you do not really know very much about that form if that is what you know.'
I'm covering one of the three applications shown for that movement. I was planning on moving on to the other two, but a thorough description of this application's difficulties is required in order to understand the defficiencies in the next two. So, before you make assumptions about my knowledge, make sure you have heard ALL of it. After all, as you say, first and second sections ARE trained to perform these flaws repeatedly. I have yet to see a good system that trains weaknesses, period, yet this movement is a weakness. Good systems teach applications and exercises, and do not mix the two where it would train poor mechanics.
'I had some experience with one Asian martial sport and some exposure to a martial art when I signed up and some of the things I saw and was taught looked off. When I asked about it or just looked doubtful if it was one on one, I was told, jsut do it this way to build your flexibility, and movement for what you'll learn later. And also would sometimes mention some basic stuff that that form helped. So I think either you didn't learn as much as you say or that is was watered down over time. I don't know about that but I do know that either you don't know much about that form or you are acting like you don't to say more stuff against them.'
Again, training flawed defensive principles is counter to what is needed for self defense and application of an art. I am explaining one application of one movement that WAS and apparently still is taught in the schools.
Basically, what you are saying is that, using dedogi, the school tries to build flexibility and at the same time, weakens the self defense skills of their lower belts. Then, theoretically, they teach them the right way later, when they have to unlearn the unsound defensive principles they have already done hundreds upon hundreds of times, and until that time, the student is at risk. And this is not fabricated movement?
Essentially, you have suggested a whole lot of things, but substantiated none of them. You suggest a possibility that in depth discussion of these movements takes away from the ability of those teaching those movements to make a living, yet fail to directly address points that myself and others have stated are the weaknesses of those movements. Logic dictates that not only are you safe to begin directly discussing these movements, but that, if what you say is true, and you are so familiar with dedogi, that you would be helping the moo by making clear some effectiveness in the system that the rest of the martial arts world has missed.
You have made suggestions about my knowledge of the moo, yet you yourself have not managed to point out a flaw in my logic, only saying that 'Well, yeah, that's true in that one application, but that's low level stuff'. I'm sorry, but if your fundamentals are flawed, what the heck kind of foundation are you building? I'm not expecting an answer there, I already feel it's a for profit foundation, and the unwillingness of most of the instructors to have honest debate about it makes it clear that scrutiny is not welcome, from either inside the schools or outside.
It's really too bad, as I feel that, at any one time, there's enough talented individuals who could implement some refinements of their system and turn things around from the course that kim and the core group of nationals have.
I guess that's up to the rogue schools.
*; =qq(